Liner Notes | Doomtree’s “Team the Best Team”
Artist: Doomtree
Song: Team the Best Team
Producers: Lazerbeak
Album: No Kings
Label: Doomtree Records
Release Date: November 22, 2011
What is the best rap song about family?
Kris: “Wu-Tang Clan Ain’t Nuthing ta Fuck Wit” by Wu-Tang Clan
Devin: “Family Business” by Kanye West
What are your favorite bars from “Team the Best Team”?
Kris:
So shake, shake, shoot. It's like win, draw, lose.
'Cause dice kept cooped up, just bring bad luck. Man is made to choose.
Yeah, mixed media: flesh, electricity, bone.
We rent, we visit, but we're never quite home.
'Cause the river can't know when the levy might go.
So, draw your arm and throw.
Devin:
Knowing even the greatest dancers in the world
are bound to leave the dance floor.
Links/Videos mentioned in this episode:
Kris, his wife, and daughter were in the crowd at this show.
Watch Kris and Devin’s live recording of this episode on YouTube:
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Devin Dabney 00:00
Hi. I'm Devin Dabney.
Kris Hampton 00:09
I'm Kris Hampton.
Devin Dabney 00:11
And this is how… Hip Hop Taught Me Everything.
Kris Hampton 00:20
Okay, at this point, you all know the deal. If you haven't listened to this week's episode, Doomtree Taught Me Family, get on it. Because it's a Music + Talk podcast, it's only available on Spotify. And with Spotify Premium, you're able to listen to the full song, in this case, "Team the Best Team", immediately after the episode. Now, before we get into these liner notes, since this is our first group of the season, I don't think we've talked about a group yet. It's all been solo artists right now.
Devin Dabney 00:52
Yeah, no, we haven't I don't think.
Kris Hampton 00:54
Okay, I have a pop question for you.
Devin Dabney 00:57
Okay,
Kris Hampton 00:58
Before we get to our actual question. Again, same as with the first pop question we did this season, there's no wrong answer. And it's a damn near impossible question to answer. But you only get one answer. No explanation. Tribe Called Quest or Outkast?
Devin Dabney 01:21
Outkast, Outkast.
Kris Hampton 01:26
I knew you were gonna say that. I'm A Tribe Called Quest person. That was a hard one. Maybe someday we'll explain our answers, but not today.
Devin Dabney 01:37
Everyone's like, you're done, Devin. Credibility is gone. How could you? How could you say that so quickly?
Kris Hampton 01:42
No, wrong answer, no wrong answer.
Devin Dabney 01:45
It's a good question.
Kris Hampton 01:47
Alright, real question. What is the best rap song about family? And this can be about a single family member or the idea of family in general. Talk to me.
Devin Dabney 01:58
You know, if you remember when you texted me this question, I said that I had a gut reaction. And I was just going to stick with it. So I just picked the first song that I immediately thought of which is "Family Business" by Kanye West. That is such a good song. Yeah, I get emotional every time I hear that song. Like, old Kanye was in his lane when he was talking about family. I mean, if you think about, you know, that song "Hey, Mama", "Roses", like he's always doing such a good job of like, sharing his feelings. And yeah, just that song is so heartfelt, and yeah, I don't know if a lot of people like think of that song when they think of "College Dropout". But that's like, maybe one of my favorite songs. And but there's, I mean, there's another, gosh - I had another honorable mention. "Yesterday" by Atmosphere.
Kris Hampton 02:54
Damn. I didn't even put that one in my honorable mentions. Totally blanked it.
Devin Dabney 02:57
That's like maybe one of my favorite songs period. I actually may want to do an episode on it, because it is like one of the best told stories, you know, it's just the way it's written. And the when, when the last few bars come and like the story is revealed to you, it just it all hits you at once. And I don't know what human being can't get emotional at that song. Like, it's just so good. But yeah, "Family Business" was the first one I immediately thought of. So that's what I picked.
Kris Hampton 03:26
Yeah, that's funny. I hadn't really connected the dots here. But I have very, you know how when you hear a song, it takes you back to this very distinct memory of when you first heard the song, or maybe just a time you were listening to it, and you're like, 'Oh, I remember where I was, what I was doing, what my surroundings look like.' "Yesterday" is like that for me. And the first time I heard that, that final bit where he kind of reveals the story, my fucking mind was blown. I can tell you where I was driving, I can tell you what street corner I was on. You know it, it's so good.
Devin Dabney 04:04
Yeah, if we had to pick top 10 rap groups, like Atmosphere would be in my top 10 for sure. Because they are just really great storytellers. And yeah, that song is like probably one of my top 10 songs. So what about you?
Kris Hampton 04:18
I had a couple of honorable mentions here that just popped into my head immediately. "Family Business", of course, was in my honorable mentions as well as "Hey, Mama" and "Roses". Yeah, I don't know how you cannot talk about those three songs, you know? Genius, Kanye. I also had in honorable mentions "Dear Mama" from Tupac. And "Mockingbird" from Eminem.
Devin Dabney 04:42
Oh, man, I didn't even think about that song in terms of... Yeah, yeah, that's a, that's a good family song, that's for sure.
Kris Hampton 04:50
Yeah, great ones. And "Hey, Mama" for me is probably the actual winner here, but I'm going to get a little obtuse, and I'm gonna make the case that "Wu-Tang Clan Ain't Nuthing ta Fuck Wit" is the best song about family.
Devin Dabney 05:07
How could I... see, like, I need to expand what I think of when I think of family because I mean, that is how I think about it more as like who you choose, but I just didn't even did... I was listening to that song yesterday! Or like, Saturday, when I went, like went to the climbing gym. That's, uh, yeah, I mean, obviously, that's a great song.
Kris Hampton 05:29
Yeah. And it's like, it's not specifically about family. Like, they're not saying, you know, things about their parents or something. But it's like, you see this family? You don't want smoke?
Devin Dabney 05:41
Yeah, yeah.
Kris Hampton 05:42
And I think that says enough. And I think that's how we should treat our family.
Devin Dabney 05:48
100%. Yeah, I mean, I think it, I think it speaks about family in the sense of like, of like, the strength of it, and like, look at us together. And that's like, what the appeal of a family is, I mean, that's the core of it, right? Is like, feeling like you're powerful in numbers, but you're strong alone. And like, just being an imposing force together.
Kris Hampton 05:51
Exactly. You've got this group of people who are there to lift you up, and you're there to lift them up. And, you know, that's so important. And that, this episode, Doomtree Taught Me Family is all about that for me. Because I didn't, I didn't really grow up with a, you know, traditional nuclear family I did until I was a teenager. But then I was very quickly living on my own as a teenager and didn't really have that family unit. So I've had to learn from 15 years old that, that I have to create my own family. So for me, DNA doesn't really play into it.
Devin Dabney 06:54
Yeah, and that's one thing that I really identified with you on this episode was that I had a very similar situation growing up, you know. I did have - I would not say that I have like a traditional family - but I did, you know, by the time I was an adult, I would say, I had a pretty, pretty good solid, I guess, quote unquote, nuclear family. But yeah, aside from that part of my family, I am not connected to really the rest of my family that much at all. It's always been a very, you know, to put it in short terms, a very complicated situation. And, and I've always chosen to find people that rather than share the same blood as me, like, that share the same values as me or like, yeah, are interested in the same things. I mean, that's just how I am. I'd rather be around people who make me better and like, make me want to be like them. I don't know if this makes sense. But I want to be friends with people that I'm like, almost jealous of of like, damn, like, I want to be like, as good at this as you or I want to be as nice as this person or funny or, or cool, or whatever it is. Those are the kind of people I like to be around.
Kris Hampton 08:08
Yeah, I think, I think admiration and respect are, are massive parts of the family unit. If I don't, if I don't admire and respect you, what's the point?
Devin Dabney 08:23
Right, right, you know, and why should I like make myself be around people that I don't necessarily want to or that don't make me better or that I don't make them better? Simply because of something arbitrary like family, like we don't - or like blood family - like we don't, we don't pick... that, that's kind of the the deal, right?
Kris Hampton 08:44
Right.
Devin Dabney 08:44
And some people would argue that like, there's something to be said about like, you don't choose your family, but you love them anyway, blah, blah... but I don't know. For me, I've always been like, I want to be in control of my life. I want to choose who I do and do not spend time with. It's actually you know, how, in the beginning of this episode you were talking about, like Thundercats and Voltron and... dude, you were, you're really hitting a chord with me because my mom will tell you this: Like when I was like, two or three, from the time I was eight, I was obsessed with the Power Rangers. Like, like OBSESSED and I think part of it was just that it was like this, like group of people that were all pretty dope martial artists, but then they got together and like, you know, they were something greater. And also just all the fighting and sci-fi shit and all of that I love, too, but, but yeah, I don't know... you were just really like on my wavelength this episode.
Kris Hampton 09:40
That's funny. I sort of knew I would be and that's, that's part of why I went down that path, you know. Even the, the initial draft of that episode had even more cartoons in it.
Devin Dabney 09:54
Man. We can have a Patreon where you do like the long-form and I'll subscribe. And, and you can mention all of the like, cartoon shit that you want.Yeah, seriously do that. I mean, I think that actually was probably my first example of what I thought was awesome as family because like Power Rangers, and then when I started to get into comic books, it was X-Men, you know? Like, I love that there was like a fucking mob of all these super-powered unique individuals. And then yeah, that's kind of what hip hop is too. I mean, really, for the listeners, this was actually my first exposure to Doomtree, like I had never listened to them before. I had never heard of them before. Before Kris brought them up. But this album feels like, like a musical Megazord like, it feels like all these people that are distinct, coming together and making something that they wouldn't make otherwise, you know, like by themselves, and it feels very cohesive. It doesn't feel like they're seven people. It feels like, I mean, it feels like there's more than one but also they feel like they're synchronized. I don't know how to explain it. But this album is really good. The whole thing.
Kris Hampton 11:02
Yeah, for sure. And I bet a lot of the people listening have not been exposed to Doomtree. They're probably the most obscure, though I would not call them obscure, necessarily. They have a massive and rabid fan base. But so I'll give some backstory here: Doomtree is a Minneapolis-based hip hop collective that consists of two producers: Lazerbeak and Paper Tiger, and five emcees: Sims, Cecil Otter, Mike Mictlan, POS and Dessa, with a couple of the emcees, Cecil Otter and POS mainly, also sharing production duty. So like I mentioned in the Lessons episode, it could feel hectic, you know, it could feel confusing, if, if they weren't so synchronized, like you mentioned.
Devin Dabney 11:55
Yeah, actually, now that I think about that, like, I think some of the best groups in hip hop, it seems like there's a lot of them, but then when they're together it doesn't, it doesn't feel overwhelming. Like Wu Tang, God, there's what? Like nine of them?
Kris Hampton 12:10
I think there's 724 members,
Devin Dabney 12:13
They add one every, every lunar year. This will be the... yeah, I mean, there's at least nine, I feel like. But it doesn't feel that way. I mean, part of it is probably because not every single member is rapping on every single song. But even when they all are on a song, I don't know, it's just, I think one reason is because they feel different enough that it's not like... that it's exciting to hear one of them come in. Like I think of the song "Wu-Tang Clan Ain't Nuthing ta Fuck Wit" now because we're talking about it, but having them duck in and out, and then like having them all come together on the chorus and then like, Oh, here's the RZA and like, it just, it just works. And yeah, it's the same with this where like, it really kind of feels like - I think I said this to you - but it really kind of feels like a jam session in the sense of like, you know, the beat is going and like one of them is rapping and then another one picks it up right where they left off. And another one picks it up. And they all just seem to be kind of rapping the same idea or verse, but it just, just flows like it's one person.
Kris Hampton 13:22
Yeah, it works really well. And the song in this Lesson episode was "Team the Best Team". It's from the album "No Kings" which came out in November 2011. But I actually first encountered Doomtree through the emcee POS who's, who's my favorite emcee in the group. And I met him at Scribble Jam 2009 which was a hip hop festival that used to happen in Cincinnati every year. And at the time, he was manning, like slinging merch at the Rhymesayers booth. So he was selling merch for Atmosphere at the time. And that's how I came across him. My daughter and I actually, I don't know how old she was at the time, 12 I think? And you know, we went over to the Atmosphere booth so I could introduce her to Slug and we met POS there, so. Small little hip hop world. And that's how I first encountered Doomtree. They released a bunch of mixtapes and EP's called "False Hopes" and then their first crew album "Doomtree" at around that same time as I first encountered them. But it really wasn't until, until this album "No Kings" that I really became a big fan. And, and it may be, it's partly because of the like, you can hear their evolution. I'm glad I had that like cursory knowledge of them through their "False Hopes" days. At the time, it was a little more of a like crunchy, boom bap sound, you know, like a lot of Midwestern underground hip hop sounded at the time. But then you started to hear them evolve into what you just said, it sounds like a big jam session. It's like this mix of industrial pop punk jam band aesthetic. And, and what I liked the most about it is that it felt really urgent. Like, this whole album feels really urgent.
Devin Dabney 15:36
I would agree, it feels like if you're not paying attention, you'll miss a song.
Kris Hampton 15:41
Especially at the time when this came out, having, having a daughter who was a teenager, and you know, her entire life felt urgent at that time. You know, I don't know if there's a better way to describe the life of a teenager than feeling urgent. But she really fell in love with this music, too. Partly because of POS because, you know, he's this super charming emcee, but then also, in large part because of Dessa who's this like super strong, powerful woman and unabashedly so. So I as a father was immediately like, hell yes, you know, latch on to Dessa and what she's saying and what she embodies, because it's so fucking cool.
Devin Dabney 16:31
Yeah, yeah. And definitely on this song. She got the best verse, I feel like, or I mean, I really like POS's verse, too, but I think I also just am more familiar with him. He was the only rapper that I actually knew out of the group. But I really like her verse at the end.
Kris Hampton 16:47
Yeah. And I think that's one of the coolest thing about them as a group is they don't seem to want to outshine each other all the time. You know, I think there's a power in that, like, always trying to one up the the person before you, but they do a really great job of playing supporting roles when they need to. Like on this song POS is mostly a supporting role, you know? And they let Mike Mictlan have lots of the shine in this song. I think it's a, it's really a brilliant, beautiful thing that, for me, speaks a lot to family.
Devin Dabney 17:30
Yeah, Yeah, it's a weird dichotomy, right? Of like, hip hop is meant to be competitive. And I do think that there is something to be said about, like, competition, bringing out the best in you. But also, like, you want to see your friends shine, you know? Like you want to see the people you care about do the best. And actually, part of the reason that you are competitive with your family is that you want to bring out the best in them. But you don't always have to do that. Hip hop can sometimes be not competitive, if you can believe it.
Kris Hampton 18:02
Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. One of the other things I love about them and what makes it seem so much like family to me is that they're, they're not completely like, only in their own little unit. They have side projects, and they do other things with other people. And one of the biggest which you might actually be familiar with, is Lazerbeak, the producer, who is like the coolest, nerdiest white dude you'll ever meet. I'm actually - for the people watching on YouTube - I'm wearing a Lazerbeak... "Tuesday's with Lazerbeak" shirt, which was his blog he had for a while. So I was, you know, a super nerd fan. And but he produced the first Lizzo album, her her first rap album, which was called "Lizzobangers". So that was a big part of why Lizzo became who she is now.
Devin Dabney 19:06
Man. It's called "Lizzobangers"?
Kris Hampton 19:10
It's called "Lizzobangers". Yeah, he has a series of beat tapes called "Lavabangers", So that's where the "Lizzobangers" came from.
Devin Dabney 19:19
Dang, I don't, I actually don't know that. Funny side note about Lizzo real quick. The reason that I discovered her was because I was listening to St. Paul & The Broken Bones a lot, and there's a, there's a live version of "A Change is Gonna Come" that they do and Lizzo sings it with St. Paul. Yeah, I just wanted to throw that out just because I thought it was fun that that was how I discovered her, was featuring with a totally different genre.
Kris Hampton 19:54
Yeah, she's, she's brilliant. And I think Minneapolis hip hop, Minneapolis music in general, does that really well. You know, they they're constantly collaborating with each other. And there's all these little spin off groups. And yeah, it's so cool to watch. And to watch, like people rise out of there, you know. I've been, I've been aware of and watching the Minneapolis hip hop scene in particular for a lot of years. And, you know, coming, seeing Lizzo come up out of that and become this megastar that she's become, is really fucking cool. My daughter was a big fan of Lizzo. And we met her at an event called the Doomtree Zoo in St. Paul. My daughter and I and my wife went to this big festival that Doomtree was throwing, and Lizzo was just there hanging out in the crowd dancing, you know? So I love that there are those female role models in hip hop and attached to, especially attached to, this music that my daughter and I were really bonding over.
Devin Dabney 21:10
Yeah, yeah. And you said something really interesting just now about how in that part of the Midwest hip hop scene, there's this tendency to go and make offshoot projects or go team up with these two people and then come back together. I think that's another thing that marks a good healthy family is again, it feels like a choice. Wu Tang isn't always together, you know, they can go do their own things. I still think Redman is part of Wu Tang sometimes, because him and Method Man are together so often. My favorite, like, groups in hip hop are ones where all the emcees are, are all good on their own, like, Run The Jewels is great, because the two rappers are great on their own, but putting them together makes them even better by contrast, you know?
Kris Hampton 21:57
Yeah. And I think being able to follow those individual stories, whichever direction they go, is, is really, really powerful. You know, there are certainly Doomtree fans that came because they were Dessa fans, that came because they were Cecil Otter fans, or Sims fans, and being able to go to a POS show or a Dessa show - I've seen I've seen both of them solo quite a few times, with my wife with my daughter - it's such a cool experience to be able to follow those individual storylines, but then watch them come back together as one unit with this shared vision. That's so powerful.
Devin Dabney 22:40
This is all... everything is comic books for me, because this is just making me think like, this is like, watching or like having an issue of X-Men, and then Wolverine gets his own issues. And then Cyclops gets a... yeah, like it's, it's no different really in my mind. Yeah. Because it just enriches the time that they have together. Yeah, part of being a part of a good family, in my mind, is having experiences of your own that you can bring back to the group. You know, like, if you do everything together, you're not going to have anything new to share between each other. And you're not going to create anything new if you're a music group. So I don't know, I almost feel like you have to - I mean, you don't have to - but I feel like it's better for the group if everybody has autonomy, and, and stands alone, and does their own thing. I mean, obviously, you're gonna have situations where it's like a Destiny's Child, where one clearly is like the superstar, but I don't think that that has to be a bad thing. I mean, even that example, Destiny's Child: like sure Beyonce is the super mega massive star. But, but Kelly and Michelle still had their own career/have their own careers. I think that that's an important part of family which makes me lean towards choosing my family more than like forcing myself in one, is that I need to feel like it's a choice. And I need to feel like I can do my own thing without them. And that I don't like, I don't know, I don't need them. It's a yeah, this is like interesting to talk about.
Kris Hampton 24:14
Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. And I think it's a necessary part of a family unit. Everyone can't be equal. You know, I think that's what I'm trying to say, they can't be equal in in the way that everyone else sees them. You know, there needs to be people playing the supporting roles there. There are going to be people who are more in a leadership role. There are going to be people who are the face of the group, the face of the family, whatever it is. Not everyone wants to play the same role, first off, you know? Not everybody wants to be a frontman. So having those couple of superstars who are also willing to step back and play that supporting role when it's needed, is fucking huge. And maybe they don't even realize they're doing this. But for me in particular, and I'm sure for other people, groups like Doomtree really created this space that my teenage daughter and I could bond over. You know, my, my wife loved them, my daughter loved them, I loved them, we all had different favorites. You know, we but we wanted to go to the shows together, to support and to see them. And they're this great example of what a family can be up on stage and out in the audience talking to everybody. You know, being able to travel with my teenage daughter, you know, when she's 16, 17, 18 years old. We're traveling together, like to all over the Midwest, Michigan, Chicago, Minneapolis, for Doomtree shows, for Dessa shows for POS shows. And being able to rock out at a show together. You know, that's, that's pretty fucking special for a dad and a teenage daughter to be able to do that on a regular basis.
Devin Dabney 26:20
That is pretty awesome. Yeah, you're, you're kind of like changing how I'm looking at going to shows because typically, like, I will go by myself, or I'll like go with my friends. But when I'm there, and I'm listening, I'm kind of in my own world, like, I just get so singularly focused on on the performance, you know? Like, I'm very rarely like enjoying music with the person. I'll say, I'm obsessed with music, I think that's a fair thing. And so like, when, when I'm seeing someone perform, particularly that I want to see perform, I'm just like, so laser-beam focused on them that I'm not even really taking in my surroundings, or the people around me anymore. So yeah, this idea of like, we're gonna do this together. And like, we both know, the lyrics to the song, or we have a memory associated with this song, that's a, that's part of what makes music so cool, I guess is like the shared experiences or just the different experiences or experiencing it together. Like, yeah, I don't know, I just wanted to say that you're kind of making me rethink how I like digest music, live particularly.
Kris Hampton 27:26
Well, you know, I think I do the same thing. And I think my daughter does the same thing. And I think my wife does the same thing. When we, when we go to POS shows. You've met my wife, she's, she's very, very sweet, calm. But when we go to a POS show, she turns into this mad woman, and she needs to be front and center at the stage. She raps every lyric back at him as fierce as he is rapping them.
Devin Dabney 27:59
Haha, that's great.
Kris Hampton 28:00
It's hilarious. She loses her fucking mind at POS shows. And I love that. I love, I love watching POS. I love, you know, as an emcee myself, coming in and watching how he commands a room. He owns the fucking stage. How charming he is, is incredible to me. But then I also love to be able to watch how she interacts with it and how his music changes her. Yeah, it's so cool. And it's, it's a similar thing watching my daughter at shows. We went to a Dessa show in Michigan. And, and number one: like Dessa comes down off the stage and is rapping and she sees my wife rapping all the lyrics. Yeah, so she like puts the mic in front of my wife. And so, so Annalissa is rapping Dessa's song, you know, and she and my daughter are both going crazy. And I think Kaitlynn, my daughter was like, I don't know, 16 at the time, I think? And like most 16 year olds, she like, wants to show all her friends that she was there, so she's gotten her cell phone out, and she's recording Dessa performing. And watching her cell phone, you know, watching Dessa through the screen of her cell phone and I'm like, I'm like, 'You know what, if you want to see that through a screen, you can watch it on YouTube tomorrow because somebody else, one of the other 70 people holding their phones up in here is going to put it on YouTube. Why don't you put your phone away and watch the show, experience the show?' And, and she did. You know, she was a little resistant and like, 'Dad!' at first. But the next time Dessa came to Cincinnati, my wife and my daughter went together - I was out of town. And my wife told me after the show, she was like 'Kaitlynn didn't even take her phone in to the venue. She left it in the car on purpose.'
Devin Dabney 28:12
Wow. Nice.
Kris Hampton 28:50
So I think that kind of stuff is so, so cool. And it doesn't happen without Dessa, without POS, without Doomtree, for me anyway.
Devin Dabney 30:18
Absolutely, yeah, this might be where we sit on the other side of the generation... like the, the gap of phones and not phones. Because I'm on your side, I also think that, I think we are too worried about losing memories. And I think a lot of times the memories we're worried about losing are ones we don't really want anyway, like, why do we need to remember every single thing that we've eaten? You know, like, I don't know what we're gonna be like as grandparents like because you know, my granddad...
Kris Hampton 30:52
I am a grandparent now. So I know what I'm gonna be like.
Devin Dabney 30:54
Yeah, that's a good point. Well, my granddad had like five photos of him ever. Like, he's like, this is, this is me when I was 13. This is me when I was 31. Like, wait, what happened in.... we don't know. Like, you know, only he knows. But when I'm like 80, I'm going to be like, what month do you want out of my life?
Kris Hampton 31:16
I can scroll through Instagram and see.
Devin Dabney 31:18
Yeah, like, I think that's a huge thing that I'm still trying to wrap my head around as I get older. But I learned pretty early on that there's more value in experiencing it as it happens, than trying to capture it. Because a lot of times when you try to capture it, you end up getting disappointed in some way. Anyway, I would love to hear the other side of that argument. Because I'm sure there's merit to recording everything. But I just feel like, if you experience it, you're gonna remember it. You don't need to document it in case you forget it, because then you're not even experiencing it, so you DO need to document it because you're not experiencing it.
Kris Hampton 31:57
Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know if you and I have talked about this much but for the last year or so I've been really considering what like, legacy looks like when a person is gone. And because I'm in this first generation of people who are creating this massive digital footprint. Like when my grandparents died, I have a few photos of them, you know, I have no record of their voices. I have no video of them. Just a handful of photos and the memories that I have. But when I die, there's going to be hundreds and hundreds of hours of me talking on the internet. Hundreds of hours of video. Millions probably of photos. And I'm not sure I like that idea. I've met so many people whose memories are directly attached to a photo where they'll tell me a memory. And then they're like, 'Oh, I'll show you. Let me pull it up on my Instagram.' And I'm like, so are you remembering the memory? Or are you remembering the photo? Because they're different things. Watching a concert through the screen of your phone while you record it is not the same as watching a concert, experiencing a concert. So I've actually talked about, looked into, and considered wiping myself off the internet as part of my like, last will and testament.
Devin Dabney 33:31
Is that possible? Like, can you even...
Kris Hampton 33:32
It's possible. It's absolutely possible. There are companies that do it for you.
Devin Dabney 33:37
Oh, wow. Because yeah, I'm thinking in my head, like once you put something on the internet, it gets copied and copied. And like, I guess I just didn't think it was possible to expunge yourself from the internet.
Kris Hampton 33:48
Yeah, so I've considered that. But you know, having this conversation also brings up some things that I think are really interesting. When I was looking for photos for this episode, I came across a photo of the Doomtree Zoo. The photo's taken from stage. It's of POS standing at the front of the stage with his arms up and the crowd's going crazy. And you can see me, my wife, and my daughter in the crowd losing our minds. And for me, that's kind of cool. Like I didn't have a memory of that specific moment. But seeing the photo did spark that. I remembered the feeling because of that. I didn't document that moment, someone else did. So it was interesting to see that. There's also... one of my favorite photos is a photo that I did not take. I tried to take the photo, but I couldn't figure out how to make it work. It was, my daughter had handed me her phone at a Dessa show and said, wanted me to take a picture of her and Dessa together. And I couldn't get the phone to work. So Dessa just snatched the phone from me, and took a selfie with my daughter. And, and that photo is very cool. Like it's a cool moment for her, she's beaming in the photo with this, you know, this woman who is a great example for young women. And I love that photo. So there are examples of it that I, that I question, you know. Another one is, my wife and I were driving back to Cincinnati from South Dakota on New Year's. We bought tickets for a Doomtree show on New Year's Eve in Iowa. So we stop in Iowa for New Year's Eve. We watch the show. It's, the show's incredible. And I'm like, I want to have them all sign this book, this notebook I brought with me for for Kaitlynn. So we weasel our way backstage and get, get everybody to sign the book. There's a photo of me with, with the whole group minus Dessa. She was not there. But with all the guys in the group backstage in their dressing room hanging out with them. And for my daughter, that photo was a very cool thing. Like, here's this, here's this rap group she loves. And here's her dad with the rap group, you know? Yeah, I think for her, that's a really special thing. So I have mixed feelings.
Devin Dabney 36:39
Yeah, I will always allow myself a couple of photos. I just think that being intentional is the thing, right? Like that photo captures a specific moment that stands out, you know? Like, you made me think of a photo I took at, I used to go to Riot Fest every year in Chicago and one year Rise Against was playing and Rise Against is one of my favorite bands of all time, of course, you know, and it was like, you remember that Linkin Park video where they're like, it's, I think it's like, "In The End" where it's like raining and like they're hitting the drums and like waters coming off? That's what it was like watching Rise Against play. And I took the photo at that moment, because it just felt so cinematic. And so now when I look at that photo, it's not necessarily even a good photo, but when I look at it, I immediately go back to being covered in mud and rain and listening to a bunch of music about tearing down the system. Which is one of my one of my favorite things to listen to.
Kris Hampton 37:40
Absolutely, absolutely. You just, you just made me connect some dots that I really had never really considered, but I do appreciate. So thank you for saying that. It's all about being intentional. Like many things in life, I think we, we like encounter something and then we want to recreate it over and over and over. So if you're really intentional about the moments that you're taking photos of which is, which is how it started, you know? Film was expensive to develop so you get a couple of shots and then you're done. You know, you can't take... Christmases when I was a kid, you couldn't take 3,000 photos, you know? There were going to be six photos of Christmas morning. So you had to be really intentional about those moments you were taking photos of. And, and as a result, we often took photos of the things that were going to be good memories. I think because of the ease of cameras, we've all got one in our pockets, we want to recreate that. Like we want to make more memories by taking more photos, we're trying to, you know, come at it from the back. And that's not really how it works. So what ends up happening, I think, is that many of the photos we take we mistake as memories, when we're really remembering the photo. But there are certainly times like you're talking about where you're intentional about it. You take a photo of a memory and that allows you to spark that memory. So yeah. Interesting. Maybe I won't wipe myself off the internet when this is all over.
Devin Dabney 39:31
Yeah, I guess it depends, right? Like if there's specific things, like moments that, that you're capturing, because yeah, like that photo that I was talking about. It was not about the photo itself. It was just that I took it because I wanted to remember that feeling that I was currently having. I always tend to think there's a middle ground, there's usually some mixture or spectrum that you can sit on. And with photos, I'm like on the far side, where with concerts like I don't need to take a 100 million photos because I want to experience a concert, but I will take photos of very specific things that I think are cool or, or feelings that I'm having or a person that I meet. Like, obviously, if I meet Lupe Fiasco live at a concert, I'm gonna take a picture of him. But yeah, just being intentional and really like, 'This is a memory. I'm having a memory,' you know, like, not 'I'm gonna form the memory.'
Kris Hampton 40:25
Yeah, another, another note on, you know, the same line of thinking: in the Lessons episode, I mentioned Mike Mictlan, when his verse begins, he always seemed kind of like the odd man out in the group for me. He was a little harder than everyone else, a little more chaotic than everyone else. Which I liked, but, but he seemed like the odd man out. And then seeing them in concert, I saw the way they operated together. And particularly at the Doomtree Zoo, during Mike's verse on "Team the Best Team", I watched Mike start his verse, and everyone else in the group became a fan of his...
Devin Dabney 41:11
Yes, that's cool.
Kris Hampton 41:11
...like they, they had so much admiration and respect for him as an emcee that, that they all stopped what they were doing, and just became fans of Mike for, for the length of his verse. And it made everybody else in the audience do the same. Yeah, like, if we had seen him as the odd man out before, all of a sudden, we were like, oh, that's why he's the odd man out because he's better than all of them. And they all want to rap like him, you know? And, and when I was looking through photos during this episode, doing some research, I came across a photo of that moment at that concert...
Devin Dabney 41:54
Dang. That's cool.
Kris Hampton 41:56
...that was in the Minneapolis press or something. I'll make sure we we post that photo in the blog for for this episode. You can clearly see what I'm depicting, what I'm talking about in the Lessons episode of, you know, like, POS standing really close to him and just being in awe of it. And yeah, everybody just being a fan on stage. It's so cool to watch. And I think it goes back to what you said about admiring and respecting the people that you keep around you. And, and it ties right into this memories idea. So, I love it.
Devin Dabney 42:34
Absolutely. That's, yeah, that's really cool. I, and I also think just on a side note, that I think in groups like that, you do have to have the wild one. You know, Wu Tang had ODB, you know, like, like, you know what I mean? He's massively different than like a Ghostface, or an Inspectah Deck, but they needed him, you know? Like, he was a very key part of their, their chemistry. So yeah, I think that having a wild card where you're like, 'Are you sure you came to the right classroom?' you know, sort of feel is important for a group. Especially a group that big, there has to be one person that kind of is like the, quote, unquote, weird one, you know?
Kris Hampton 42:36
Totally. Every family's got one.
Devin Dabney 42:37
Yeah, yeah, that's also a good point about family. There's always the weird uncle or whatever it is, you know. You know, one, one question I did want to ask you, Kris, about this is: I'm enjoying this album, like, you know, 12 years after it was made, basically, so I didn't like... you know, it was very different than the music I was listening to before it. And I'm just curious, like, how, how different was this, like, sound than the other hip hop music, or whatever that you were currently listening to at that time? You know, like, how different was it for 2011? Versus, you know, for me in 2022, it's obviously different.
Kris Hampton 44:03
I mean, I think it was a similar experience for me at the time, like, there was something so industrial and punk infused in this album, that it didn't to me sound like anything that was out. If I was paying attention, it was a pretty clear line from their "False Hopes" stuff through POS's "Never Better". And, you know, it took pieces from all of the individuals and turned it into this thing. Lazerbeak has these great pop sensibilities, hence Lizzo. So seeing all that come to like gel together in this album and in their subsequent albums, their sound changes, but it's a pretty clear, a direct line through it, which I think is very cool. And, you know, I could maybe compare it in some ways to some other Midwestern hip hop that was happening. You know, I could draw some comparisons to some Atmosphere things to some Lupe things. But it was such a unique sound. I think it really stood on its own, even back then. Probably a similar experience to what you're having, that you're having with it now.
Devin Dabney 45:32
Yeah, I mean, I think I even said to you that it actually would have fit in really well with what I was listening to at the time, because at that time, 2011, actually around the time that that Rise Against photo was taken, I was heavy into, like, post hardcore punk, you know, some metal, like that was primarily what I was listening to at that time. So this actually would have fit right in. Timing is such an important thing with music. The obvious answer is like you can listen to something and then 10 years later, listen to it and not like it as much as you did then. But you can, the opposite can happen too. Like, you can find something and it might just not be for you in that moment. But then you come back and you're like, oh my god, like, I remember this, but I don't remember it being this good. I still think it's a great album. But I actually think it would have resonated with me more when it came out. Because I was already in that punk... I mean, actually, I part of what drew me to that was Lupe a little bit. Because on "The Cool" he has at least one song that's pretty much just a punk song. Like, I think it's a it's "Hello/Goodbye". that's on there. And then, and then for a while he even had like a punk band, Japanese Cartoon. So yeah, I think I was, I was already being drawn that direction anyway. And I was heavy into it in the 2010, 11, 12 era. So yeah, I was just curious what you'd say. Because it was, it was so different for me now, compared to all the other sounds that we have, like hip hop doesn't usually have that live sound anymore.
Kris Hampton 47:09
Yeah, I mean, for me, it hit me at a time when I was like, trying to model for my daughter best I could that being who she wanted to be was the most important thing. And I think this was a really powerful way to say that without, without saying it directly to her. Because, you know, a teenage kid, the reaction of saying it directly to them is going to be 'Yeah, whatever. I know. You're lame.' So thanks to Doomtree for, for doing that for me.
Devin Dabney 47:41
Oh, shoot. You know, another thing about the, the way this album sounds that would have really hit with me 10 years ago especially, is one of the reasons I loved rock and metal and punk at that time, is that it was another way for me to process music. I was used to being so literal about it with hip hop, where I was, I was listening to every single word trying to interpret where it was gonna go, like paying attention to rhyme schemes, like, you know, but with with that kind of music, I generally don't pay attention to the words at all, like I'm just focused on the feeling behind it, and certain phrases will stick out, but for the most part, I'm just focused on the wall of sound, I guess. And that's kind of what this album feels like to me is like, it's this wall of sound, like a train that I'm just on. And every now and then there's a stop that we pass that I recognize and that's like the lyrics you know, of like, oh, like, "Even the greatest dancers in the world are bound..."
Kris Hampton 48:39
So good.
Devin Dabney 48:39
...like that sticks out, but the rest of it is just like a it's a locomotive, you know, and I and I'm just on for the ride. So yeah, it really transported me back to that like 10 years ago period where I was just I was not even listening to lyrics I was just based totally on feel and like emotion, you know.
Kris Hampton 48:57
I love that. I love that and I love it when that coincides with also having great lyrics.
Devin Dabney 49:04
Yeah, exactly.
Kris Hampton 49:05
Like you can tear apart all the pieces of the song and it's all brilliant. So with that in mind, let's talk favorite bars. What do you got?
Devin Dabney 49:14
Yeah, I think I always give it away. "Knowing the greatest dancers in the world are bound to leave the dance floor." That's a, it's such a, it's such a, I feel like a lot of the songs we've been talking about relate somehow to dying and like accepting age but that stuck out. And then, I know I'm not getting the cadence of it right, because like I said, honestly, I just I hear it in context but, the beginning of, I think it's Dessa's verse where she says, "Shake, shake, shoot. It's like win, draw, lose." And then something about like,
Kris Hampton 49:46
"'Cause dice kept cooped up, just bring bad luck. Man is made to choose."
Devin Dabney 49:51
Yeah, it's the same like I mean, I've probably said it a million times in our recording today but, just the, I love the idea of like, we are made to choose like, don't hesitate, like just make choices. I mean, kind of to relate to a couple of episodes ago talking about just putting holds on the wall, like just making your choices, being willing to learn rather than wanting to get everything perfectly, or being afraid of getting it wrong. That especially really stuck out to me because that's just like, yes, we're made to choose. What about you?
Kris Hampton 50:22
Yeah, I agree completely. I wish that Dessa had more time in the song, like she's got this really short verse. And this is not my favorite song from this album by any means. I love the whole album. But one of the reasons I chose this song to highlight was because it had all the emcees in it and they all have really standout parts. That moment you're talking about with Cecil Otter is is so incredible live. But Dessa's really short verse for me is the winner here, and I'm just gonna say her entire verse is my, my favorite. But I really do love, I love that line for the visual, the "Shake, shake, shoot. It's like win, draw lose. 'Cause dice kept cooped up, just bring bad luck. Man is made to choose." I love that. But something for me about, like when that happens and then it's followed up by really great lyrics that you don't quite pay attention to until later, is really cool. And at the end of her verse, she says, "Because the river can't know when the levee might go, so draw your arm and throw." That for me is so fucking good. Like, you don't, you don't know what's going to happen. So just fucking do the thing.
Devin Dabney 50:22
I mean, that's a lesson that I think really all of us could stand to remember of like, even just how we think about life in general. I think that we spend too much time planning for the future sometimes. Like, I don't know, even just like the idea of retirement, like what like that has always seemed crazy to me of like planning for retirement. I get that you're supposed to not like, I mean, you don't want to be stupid, and like blow everything in the moment. But I've never understood the idea of saving for retirement. So I'm like, I don't even know if I'm gonna live to be 60, whatever. And I'm not saying that I'm like, on some bender, but I'm just saying that you literally don't know. So why would I, I guess when I thought about like the structure of my life and what sort of career I wanted to have, quote, unquote, career, I was always much more like, especially as I became like, mid 20s or so I was like, I'd rather just do what is making me happy right now. Like, I'd rather focus on that, and then sort of kind of think about the future. Because we literally don't know what's going to happen in like, 20 years or 40 years or whatever.
Kris Hampton 51:50
We don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow.
Devin Dabney 52:59
Yeah, like, yeah.
Kris Hampton 53:00
And I'm gonna throw a wrench in the works here a little bit, I think. I think that this advice IS planning for the future, in that you don't know what's going to happen, right, and if you sit on an idea, if you sit on a thing, if you make something and don't put it out there, if you, if you don't draw your arm and throw, you're never going to evolve, you're never going to get past this moment. So I want to evolve, I want to get to the next moment, I want to see what happens. So I'm gonna draw my arm and throw, I'm going to put this thing out there. And then I'm going to move on to the next thing, and keep building, keep evolving. So for me, this is part of planning for the future, doing the things I want to do, putting them out there for the world, and then making the next thing.
Devin Dabney 53:58
That's actually a really profound way to look at it. Because that, that's a lesson that I had to learn about being a rapper or an artist is, you know, I had to let go of the idea of like, oh, it's not good enough, I'm not going to put it out yet. Because like, you'll never get better, you know, like, if you never put the thing out. You're only - this isn't the best way to phrase it, but you'll understand what I mean - is that you're only as good as your body of work. The only way that you can be judged as an artist is by the things that you've made not by the things that you're going to make or might make or wanted to make but didn't. Like what is literally on the page or like done, out there, is what people can absorb and experience. And yeah, so like just the same thing with life. The only way that you're going to like live a life is by living it, like by doing things, by having experiences - good and bad. And like taking chances and going like 'Oh, well that maybe wasn't the best choice but I'm gonna make it work.' or like, 'Oh, that actually was a good risk that I took.' I'm just yeah, I'm so much for like, just taking the risk, even though most risks make me uncomfortable, just taking it and seeing what, literally just seeing what happens.
Kris Hampton 55:15
I think without it, without putting the thing out there, it's an incomplete experiment, right? You, you never get the feedback. You never have a reason to readjust your, your experiment. And that's how we grow. So, you know, complete the experiment.
Devin Dabney 55:36
Yep, absolutely.
Kris Hampton 55:38
We got bars, man. This, this episode's been bars.
Devin Dabney 55:42
I just gotta say today especially. Yeah. I don't know what is. I don't know what we're on. I mean, I guess we're getting better, right? Like, this is like, the most, this is the most we've recorded of the podcast thus far. By rule, and yeah, we've just gotten better every time I feel.
Kris Hampton 55:58
Absolutely. Alright. You all know what it is. Every other week, we release short Lessons episodes. These are highly-produced essays with beats by Devin, that are something like little songs on their own. There, there might end up, I'm gonna let the cat out of the bag a little bit here, there might end up being a YouTube mixtape playlist that includes all of these Lessons episodes at the end of this season, maybe if I can get it to work the way we want it to work, we'll see. But for now, you can only hear those Lessons episodes on Spotify. We've got all of the links, the videos, the photos, all the bonus material at the blog post for these episodes at hiphoptaughtmeeverything.com . Go check those out. You can find us on Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. And we will see you next time when the best rapper alive teaches me business.
Devin Dabney 56:58
Controversial! I like it. Good work there. Oh my gosh. That's good.